Thank you for your cogent response, Paul, and the recommendation of First Principles. Also, hadn't really considered Scottish Enlightenment philosophy as a foundational master narrative structure within US master narrative identity, but as a proud McEwan and fan of Adam Smith, well, of course! Regarding rhetoric and narrative strategies, your comment on Logos, Pathos, and Ethos is interesting. I can see a connection, and an implicit typology of strategies under those headings.. I clearly need more grounding in rhetoric and its history to develop my theoretical work on narrative strategies. As always, thank you for your patience and generosity in response. Maggie
My pleasure Maggie and I very much appreciate your insightful questions. Not being an academic, I certainly remain on a learning curve. I am grateful to have such patient mentors like Dr. Maan and others. My strength is more along the lines of being a practitioner/ operator.
thank you for the essay above, Paul. The link to the Roman virtues page was particularly interesting. Would you say that you consider true American values to be equivalent in kind and type to the Roman virtues listed?
Hi Maggie and thanks as always for the excellent and thought provoking questions. Happy New Year as well. Sorry for the late response. Catching up post holidays and visiting small, rambunctious grandchildren have been time consuming and joyfully so. I’ll try and offer some insights that may be helpful.
First, your question about Roman virtue being American values: Yes and no is the short answer. An excellent new book by Tom Ricks, titled “First Principles” delves deeply into precisely this subject. So much of our founding documents and the common narratives in colonial America were built on the principles most understood as primarily, Roman attitudes as expressed by their philosophers. Washington, a personal hero, largely molded himself into the paradigm of identity most familiar in Cato (both) and Cincinnatus. Of course, there were others too. Even among lesser educated and uneducated colonials, these virtues were well known, understood and… respected.
No doubt that the formulation of our founding documents, captured the elite principles held in such high esteem. Thomas Jefferson, long enamored of French philosphers, deferred to Greek philosophy but was also aware and an advocate for elite human principles that citizens should aspire to in our fledgling republic. It’s a much longer discussion but lets not leave out the importance of Scottish Enlightenment that was such a strong influence in colonial America that was grounded in following new and innovative paths regarding government, religion, science and more.
Now… to your excellent question regarding rhetoric and narrative; Truth be told, I am a perpetual student of all this due to being the son of a history, government and education professional. I’ve had the great fortune to have terrific mentors over the decades to marry with my passion for learning more. The true philosopher is my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Ajit Maan. Still, have been fortunate to come to the understanding, from operational perspectives of the criticality of philosophy and other social sciences in understanding identity, trends and veritable fingerprints on history by those who truly understood philosophy. Influence, depends on such understanding in my opinion.
So… after this long explanation, my beliefs from operational experience is that rhetoric is best understood by the focus on Logos, Pathos, Ethos Wielding narrative as a tool of communication and influence depends on all of these and then some. Successful narratives in pursuit of persuasion, are woven together by these three threads but centered specifically on the identity of the audience (s). At NS/ Narrative Strategies, we use a formula to assist in the weaving process. It is: M+I+C+S =N or… Meaning + Identity + Content + Structure = Narrative. This incorporates tools of rhetoric plus far more. Again, this is my perspective from an operational view and I defer to Dr. Maan on getting the philosophy right. I am beyond grateful for her mentorship.
Thanks again Maggie and I hope this helps. Don’t hesitate to get Tom Ricks’ book. The great American identity’s roots are deep in his writing and in-depth research.
Thank you for your cogent response, Paul, and the recommendation of First Principles. Also, hadn't really considered Scottish Enlightenment philosophy as a foundational master narrative structure within US master narrative identity, but as a proud McEwan and fan of Adam Smith, well, of course! Regarding rhetoric and narrative strategies, your comment on Logos, Pathos, and Ethos is interesting. I can see a connection, and an implicit typology of strategies under those headings.. I clearly need more grounding in rhetoric and its history to develop my theoretical work on narrative strategies. As always, thank you for your patience and generosity in response. Maggie
My pleasure Maggie and I very much appreciate your insightful questions. Not being an academic, I certainly remain on a learning curve. I am grateful to have such patient mentors like Dr. Maan and others. My strength is more along the lines of being a practitioner/ operator.
thank you for the essay above, Paul. The link to the Roman virtues page was particularly interesting. Would you say that you consider true American values to be equivalent in kind and type to the Roman virtues listed?
Hi Maggie and thanks as always for the excellent and thought provoking questions. Happy New Year as well. Sorry for the late response. Catching up post holidays and visiting small, rambunctious grandchildren have been time consuming and joyfully so. I’ll try and offer some insights that may be helpful.
First, your question about Roman virtue being American values: Yes and no is the short answer. An excellent new book by Tom Ricks, titled “First Principles” delves deeply into precisely this subject. So much of our founding documents and the common narratives in colonial America were built on the principles most understood as primarily, Roman attitudes as expressed by their philosophers. Washington, a personal hero, largely molded himself into the paradigm of identity most familiar in Cato (both) and Cincinnatus. Of course, there were others too. Even among lesser educated and uneducated colonials, these virtues were well known, understood and… respected.
No doubt that the formulation of our founding documents, captured the elite principles held in such high esteem. Thomas Jefferson, long enamored of French philosphers, deferred to Greek philosophy but was also aware and an advocate for elite human principles that citizens should aspire to in our fledgling republic. It’s a much longer discussion but lets not leave out the importance of Scottish Enlightenment that was such a strong influence in colonial America that was grounded in following new and innovative paths regarding government, religion, science and more.
Now… to your excellent question regarding rhetoric and narrative; Truth be told, I am a perpetual student of all this due to being the son of a history, government and education professional. I’ve had the great fortune to have terrific mentors over the decades to marry with my passion for learning more. The true philosopher is my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Ajit Maan. Still, have been fortunate to come to the understanding, from operational perspectives of the criticality of philosophy and other social sciences in understanding identity, trends and veritable fingerprints on history by those who truly understood philosophy. Influence, depends on such understanding in my opinion.
So… after this long explanation, my beliefs from operational experience is that rhetoric is best understood by the focus on Logos, Pathos, Ethos Wielding narrative as a tool of communication and influence depends on all of these and then some. Successful narratives in pursuit of persuasion, are woven together by these three threads but centered specifically on the identity of the audience (s). At NS/ Narrative Strategies, we use a formula to assist in the weaving process. It is: M+I+C+S =N or… Meaning + Identity + Content + Structure = Narrative. This incorporates tools of rhetoric plus far more. Again, this is my perspective from an operational view and I defer to Dr. Maan on getting the philosophy right. I am beyond grateful for her mentorship.
Thanks again Maggie and I hope this helps. Don’t hesitate to get Tom Ricks’ book. The great American identity’s roots are deep in his writing and in-depth research.