Again I go back to my experience as a physicians, albeit a psychiatrist, that the people I had sworn an oath to protect who I trusted my life too did not trust me to offer them objective unbiased medical advice. Was it my last name? Was it a distrust in the organization that they had dedicated more than a decade of their lives to? Maybe it was their own insecurities quietly sowed by the Republican Party whom they were trusting their lives/careers despite objective data showing they were being conned.
Paul the "right" and centrist "normies" rightfully hammer on the divisiveness of identity politics, but completely ignore the issue of our county's underlying "white" default. Demographics do drive identity because skin color/race+ethnicity definitely affects how someone is treated in life, or do you disagree?
It is the felling of uncertainty (whether real or not) that those who don't meet the default demographics (be it religion, ethnicity, color, etc.) that remains a huge issue that erodes trust in government/fellow Americans.
Patriotism requires trust that regardless of background the country as a whole will extend the same sacred obligation to care for our veterans to all Americans - particularly with regards to health and the law.
If the military can make room for multiculturalism while maintaining a standard set of moral/ethics/etc why can't the country? Voting for Party has more to do with demographics and the narrative that each demographic has based on history or "myth".
Rogelio, I do realize that you are not supportive of the issue of identity as a primary factor on decision-making but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. It's fine to disagree, that is the whole point of democracy and our First Amendment. To date, I see no compelling evidence from your comments that sways my opinion.
For example, it is impossible to use demographics to establish anti-POC bias in our earliest slaves on the continent. It's impossible to use demographics in similar situations of coercive racism in other parts of the world. The Hazara in central Afghanistan are Muslim, like the Taliban but practice Shia Islam but are treated as POC in the US systemically. Humans are not born with racism, they are enculturated, and this becomes part of their overall identity. The only exception is, the role of epigenetics, which the jury is still out on.
If you only look at racism from a US perspective and don't go far deeper, it is easy to come to the conclusions you are emphasizing. Pure science cannot account for much of what we understand about identity and its impact on human behavior. Narrative is both art and science. This is why AI and other purely technological efforts to influence humans will fail in both accuracy and predictability. As for voting the party line, this is precisely identity, not demographics. In fact, the demographics you mention are a product of identity. Case-in-point, historical Southern Democrats are now the MAGA crowd. Identity is the same, but the party is different.
As for patriotism, the insidious FOX influencers have cultivated over nearly 30 years, a completely false sense of patriotism in their viewers, that don't speak to our founding values or classical patriotic notions. Their identity is sadly set unless there are personal major events in their lives that prompt reevaluation. This is not likely though.
Humans are experience driven relativists - demographics play a large role as do our interactions with others, starting in the sandbox.
Identity derives from a lot of different places demographics/geography/religion/family, but the most important thing really boils down to what group a person feels like they belong to because of their identity.
Belonging is safety. Even before identity comes into the subconscious primal survival/safety instincts are driving us, we start sorting out like/like vs like/unlike in combination with dangerous/not dangerous from birth.
Then there is context as well.
Rural vs urban is a much more indicative of what drives discord in our country not solid commitments to a states history/identity especially with the extreme gerrymandering in red states where rural areas’ votes weigh more than votes from cities. The opposite is true for blue states - an extreme example is New York.
You see confederate flags in rural areas across the country not just in the south.
The fear of being replaced is an existential threat that is truly felt by rural folks, while simultaneously the existential threat felt by minorities that don’t “belong” are real. Yet, a lot of this stems from not feeling adequately represented by government.
Safety from existential threats drives our worst herd instincts.
Thank you for this Rogelio, you have just made my case for me. Demographics are but one small piece of identity and have almost no control over our decision-making. Only understanding narrative and by association, "identity" fully can you understand how humans make meaning out of those experiences. Our subconscious, for reasons of identity make the large majority of our decisions for us, NOT demographics.
In all honesty Rogelio, we've beat this topic to death and as I noted prior, we are not going to agree. I really would like to not have to continue repeating myself. As always, everyone is welcome to their own beliefs, and I respect your right to yours. I just cannot agree for reasons of first-hand operational knowledge and being a colleague of the most prominent of Narrative Scholars, globally, Ajit Maan, PhD and CEO/ Founder of our Think and Do Tank, Narratives Strategies. https://www.narrative-strategies.com/
BLUF: Demographics are pictures/imagines that lead us to make decisions/conclusion even before the subconscious becomes aware of what is going on because our senses feed directly into the unconscious - especially when safety is of concern...
Demographics are like sports jerseys or military uniforms. Even before our subconscious becomes aware our brain has already made an assessment on fried or foe unconsciously.
Narrative Identity goes out the window when you fear for your safety and shared adversity binds those with opposing narrative identities tighter than anything thing else I know about.
Shared adversity is why I think national service is an easy solution to party identity which is largely demographically driven - look at the demographics. When we treat politics as existential threats to our safety people quickly devolve to self-preservation which is driven by like/like unconscious "thought" if we can even call it that.
A military uniform/sports jersey does away with demographics and narrative identity the moment bullets starts flying.
You are focusing on how/why people choose teams (narrative identity) in the middle of soccer match (a game with existential ramifications)... the game has already started so how do you get the players to recognize they are on the same team? People are focused on the color of skin instead of what jersey/uniform they are wearing thanks to our countries history and politics...
I am not trying to lecture you or Dr. Maan. I am simply providing my POV. You are thinking operationally while missing the underlying "clinical" experience from those who are still close enough to where the boots meet the ground but removed somewhere in the middle to know where the disconnect is occurring.
Rogelio, you are confusing yourself. Demographics are not as you described. NI/ Narrative Identity is what saves our lives in most situations because we typically and subconsciously default to preprogrammed responses built into our identity.
Now and as I previously indicated, I see absolutely no reason to continue debating this issue. Uniforms and jerseys are not demographics. If there were evidence to your points, you would have shared it. As for boots on the ground, I in fact do have a great deal of experience with this and also, “when bullets are flying.” The links you have supplied actually make my case stronger, not the opposite.
I wish you well but let’s continue talking over another topic.
"Our results suggest that biases for other-race faces emerge at some of the earliest stages of sensory perception."
This is literally child psychiatry 101, kids aren't racists but they notice race and race plays a huge factor in decision making not because of "racism" but because of survival (hang out with those who look like me = better odds of survival: historically speaking). This caries on well into adolescences and beyond. It stems from belonging.
Here I go again... Paul we need to be up front about what the historical American’s “default” demographics are and how this “no true Scotmandism” is nothing but a fallacy...
Please recall Rogelio that demographics are not identity. Identity is a product of every human being's development and only based on perception, not truth.
Or are they? Identity only goes so far until it is met with reality sort of like how Ludwig von Mises found out after supporting the Anschluss and fascism...
While I identify as an American my identity doesn’t blind me to the reality of my demographic background, how others see me, and how I am not the “default.”
Is it though? My discomfort from being the only Hispanic (despite being whiteish) in a group stems from my subconscious, yet acknowledging this feeling brings it to the conscious which allows me to wonder wether my feelings are based on reality vs my own insecurities.
I can’t wrap my mind around darker skinned Hispanics feeling at home amongst white nationalist. To me it is a lack of self awareness that comes from feeling like they belong to an in group.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2013/07/civil-rights-coverage-how-the-soviets-used-evidence-of-racial-strife-against-us-in-the-world-press.html
Again I go back to my experience as a physicians, albeit a psychiatrist, that the people I had sworn an oath to protect who I trusted my life too did not trust me to offer them objective unbiased medical advice. Was it my last name? Was it a distrust in the organization that they had dedicated more than a decade of their lives to? Maybe it was their own insecurities quietly sowed by the Republican Party whom they were trusting their lives/careers despite objective data showing they were being conned.
Another historic example:
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/henry-kissinger-to-soviet-jewry-drop-dead/67864/
Paul the "right" and centrist "normies" rightfully hammer on the divisiveness of identity politics, but completely ignore the issue of our county's underlying "white" default. Demographics do drive identity because skin color/race+ethnicity definitely affects how someone is treated in life, or do you disagree?
It is the felling of uncertainty (whether real or not) that those who don't meet the default demographics (be it religion, ethnicity, color, etc.) that remains a huge issue that erodes trust in government/fellow Americans.
Patriotism requires trust that regardless of background the country as a whole will extend the same sacred obligation to care for our veterans to all Americans - particularly with regards to health and the law.
If the military can make room for multiculturalism while maintaining a standard set of moral/ethics/etc why can't the country? Voting for Party has more to do with demographics and the narrative that each demographic has based on history or "myth".
Rogelio, I do realize that you are not supportive of the issue of identity as a primary factor on decision-making but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. It's fine to disagree, that is the whole point of democracy and our First Amendment. To date, I see no compelling evidence from your comments that sways my opinion.
For example, it is impossible to use demographics to establish anti-POC bias in our earliest slaves on the continent. It's impossible to use demographics in similar situations of coercive racism in other parts of the world. The Hazara in central Afghanistan are Muslim, like the Taliban but practice Shia Islam but are treated as POC in the US systemically. Humans are not born with racism, they are enculturated, and this becomes part of their overall identity. The only exception is, the role of epigenetics, which the jury is still out on.
If you only look at racism from a US perspective and don't go far deeper, it is easy to come to the conclusions you are emphasizing. Pure science cannot account for much of what we understand about identity and its impact on human behavior. Narrative is both art and science. This is why AI and other purely technological efforts to influence humans will fail in both accuracy and predictability. As for voting the party line, this is precisely identity, not demographics. In fact, the demographics you mention are a product of identity. Case-in-point, historical Southern Democrats are now the MAGA crowd. Identity is the same, but the party is different.
As for patriotism, the insidious FOX influencers have cultivated over nearly 30 years, a completely false sense of patriotism in their viewers, that don't speak to our founding values or classical patriotic notions. Their identity is sadly set unless there are personal major events in their lives that prompt reevaluation. This is not likely though.
https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/xge-xge0000851.pdf
Humans are experience driven relativists - demographics play a large role as do our interactions with others, starting in the sandbox.
Identity derives from a lot of different places demographics/geography/religion/family, but the most important thing really boils down to what group a person feels like they belong to because of their identity.
Belonging is safety. Even before identity comes into the subconscious primal survival/safety instincts are driving us, we start sorting out like/like vs like/unlike in combination with dangerous/not dangerous from birth.
Then there is context as well.
Rural vs urban is a much more indicative of what drives discord in our country not solid commitments to a states history/identity especially with the extreme gerrymandering in red states where rural areas’ votes weigh more than votes from cities. The opposite is true for blue states - an extreme example is New York.
You see confederate flags in rural areas across the country not just in the south.
https://cardinalscholar.bsu.edu/items/ea3bf544-a1e6-41a5-8d21-a5a13ab785af
The fear of being replaced is an existential threat that is truly felt by rural folks, while simultaneously the existential threat felt by minorities that don’t “belong” are real. Yet, a lot of this stems from not feeling adequately represented by government.
Safety from existential threats drives our worst herd instincts.
Thank you for this Rogelio, you have just made my case for me. Demographics are but one small piece of identity and have almost no control over our decision-making. Only understanding narrative and by association, "identity" fully can you understand how humans make meaning out of those experiences. Our subconscious, for reasons of identity make the large majority of our decisions for us, NOT demographics.
In all honesty Rogelio, we've beat this topic to death and as I noted prior, we are not going to agree. I really would like to not have to continue repeating myself. As always, everyone is welcome to their own beliefs, and I respect your right to yours. I just cannot agree for reasons of first-hand operational knowledge and being a colleague of the most prominent of Narrative Scholars, globally, Ajit Maan, PhD and CEO/ Founder of our Think and Do Tank, Narratives Strategies. https://www.narrative-strategies.com/
BLUF: Demographics are pictures/imagines that lead us to make decisions/conclusion even before the subconscious becomes aware of what is going on because our senses feed directly into the unconscious - especially when safety is of concern...
Demographics are like sports jerseys or military uniforms. Even before our subconscious becomes aware our brain has already made an assessment on fried or foe unconsciously.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120118101538.htm
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/201912/subconscious-vs-unconscious-how-tell-the-difference
Narrative Identity goes out the window when you fear for your safety and shared adversity binds those with opposing narrative identities tighter than anything thing else I know about.
Shared adversity is why I think national service is an easy solution to party identity which is largely demographically driven - look at the demographics. When we treat politics as existential threats to our safety people quickly devolve to self-preservation which is driven by like/like unconscious "thought" if we can even call it that.
A military uniform/sports jersey does away with demographics and narrative identity the moment bullets starts flying.
You are focusing on how/why people choose teams (narrative identity) in the middle of soccer match (a game with existential ramifications)... the game has already started so how do you get the players to recognize they are on the same team? People are focused on the color of skin instead of what jersey/uniform they are wearing thanks to our countries history and politics...
I am not trying to lecture you or Dr. Maan. I am simply providing my POV. You are thinking operationally while missing the underlying "clinical" experience from those who are still close enough to where the boots meet the ground but removed somewhere in the middle to know where the disconnect is occurring.
Rogelio, you are confusing yourself. Demographics are not as you described. NI/ Narrative Identity is what saves our lives in most situations because we typically and subconsciously default to preprogrammed responses built into our identity.
Now and as I previously indicated, I see absolutely no reason to continue debating this issue. Uniforms and jerseys are not demographics. If there were evidence to your points, you would have shared it. As for boots on the ground, I in fact do have a great deal of experience with this and also, “when bullets are flying.” The links you have supplied actually make my case stronger, not the opposite.
I wish you well but let’s continue talking over another topic.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1822084116
"Our results suggest that biases for other-race faces emerge at some of the earliest stages of sensory perception."
This is literally child psychiatry 101, kids aren't racists but they notice race and race plays a huge factor in decision making not because of "racism" but because of survival (hang out with those who look like me = better odds of survival: historically speaking). This caries on well into adolescences and beyond. It stems from belonging.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32463276/
Unconscious - lizard brain, subconscious - paleomammilian, and consciousness neomammalian - is way to simple but a good scaffold.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/managing-your-memory/201712/don-t-listen-your-lizard-brain
Better understanding:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2022.802606/full
On uniforms and students.
https://helpfulprofessor.com/school-uniform-statistics/
on uniforms and professional pride
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2019.00253/full
Aight I'm done Paul. This is exhausting, and my only intent is to contribute to your work.
Here I go again... Paul we need to be up front about what the historical American’s “default” demographics are and how this “no true Scotmandism” is nothing but a fallacy...
Please recall Rogelio that demographics are not identity. Identity is a product of every human being's development and only based on perception, not truth.
https://www.axios.com/2022/03/10/rise-white-nationalist-hispanics-latinos
Or are they? Identity only goes so far until it is met with reality sort of like how Ludwig von Mises found out after supporting the Anschluss and fascism...
While I identify as an American my identity doesn’t blind me to the reality of my demographic background, how others see me, and how I am not the “default.”
What you are describing is conscious thought. Our NI/ Narrative Identity makes most of our decisions for us... subconsciously.
Is it though? My discomfort from being the only Hispanic (despite being whiteish) in a group stems from my subconscious, yet acknowledging this feeling brings it to the conscious which allows me to wonder wether my feelings are based on reality vs my own insecurities.
I can’t wrap my mind around darker skinned Hispanics feeling at home amongst white nationalist. To me it is a lack of self awareness that comes from feeling like they belong to an in group.